Wednesday April 7, 2004
Trill Instructions
From The Phonetics of Russian by Daniel Jones and Dennis Ward (1969): impressively detailed instructions on how to learn to make the alveolar trill [r] sound in Russian (which may actually be dental—my various references disagree). These instructions are both useful (if you can't make that sound) and amusingly British. I taught myself how to make this sound a few years ago by trial and error, and I'm still not very good at it. It would have been nice to have these instructions back then, instead of making various hissing and spitting noises until it annoyed The Wife. Enjoy!
[starting on p. 177...]
22.7 The sound r as described in § 22.2 exists in some kinds of English pronunciation. In particular, it is commonly used in Scotland as the pronunciation of the letter r, and it is the form of r-sound generally recommended in England for use in elocution and singing.
22.8 The majority of English people are, however, quite unable to pronounce a rolled r without special practice. The sound used almost universally in England in such a word as raw is a fricative [generally described as an approximant nowadays, actually] consonant and not a rolled one. If it is necessary to distinguish this sound from other r-sounds, it may be symbolized by ɹ.
[Skipping 22.9, which is about Russian phonetics.]
22.10 English people who do not normally use a rolled r fall into three classes: [it's always about class with some people]
- there are some who can make a perfectly good and sustained rolled r with little or no practice and without effort;
- others can without practice make a kind of feeble rolled r, but they only manage it with difficulty and, generally, after preparation; moreover they are unable to prolong it;
- others are totally unable to make any kind of rolled r without long practice.
22.11 Learners of class (1) have only to remember to use the sound r properly in speaking Russian. They must particularly bear in mind to pronounce r before consonants and at the end of words where the spelling has р and the phonetic notation has r.
22.12 No learner should consider himself to be in class (1) unless he can without difficulty hold on a continuous rolled r for at least five seconds.
22.13 Certain sound-groups containing r may present difficulties to learners of class (1); they must be mastered by continued repetition of words or syllables containing those groups. Examples for such practice will be found below. [except that I'm omitting them]
22.14 Learners of class (2) should perfect their rolled r before attempting to use it in Russian words. There is nothing to do but to repeat their rolled r again and again, hundreds of times if necessary, endeavouring to sustain it as long as possible. It may be found in the first instance that a great deal of force of breath has to be used in order to make the sound; if so, practice must be continued until the sound can be produced with normal force of breath.
22.15 Many learners of class (2) will also find that they can make a rolled r of sorts in certain sound-combinations, but not in others. Thus it is not uncommon to meet with people who can make a rolled r when the sound is immediately preceded by t or d, but not in any other connexion. Such learners must continually practise the combinations with r which they can make, endeavouring to eliminate by degrees the adjoining sounds, until at last they can say the r in isolation. They must not be satisfied until they can start a rolled r without any perceptible preparation and can sustain it for five seconds without undue effort and without its becoming 'breathy'.
22.16 Learners of class (2) must moreover be able to join r on to any other sound without stumbling. In particular, they must learn to use the sound properly when final or followed by a consonant. Facility in the use of r in connected speech is attained by means of repetition exercises.
22.17 If they cannot isolate r from the combinations with r which they can make, they must proceed as learners of class (3) (see below).
22.18 To learners of class (3)―those who are unable to make the tongue-tip vibrate at all―the task of learning to make a good rolled r is generally a long and difficult one. It is, however, one which must be undertaken by those who wish to learn to speak Russian properly. Some people who claim to be unable to produce a good rolled r will in fact produce a very good and prolonged rolled r if asked to make a noise like a motor-bike or a road-drill: brrrrr or drrrrr. They may also find that the noise indicating that they feel cold (usually written brrrrr) is a long, rolled r, or a voiceless rolled r (r̥).
22.19 Failing this, the best way to proceed is as follows. If the learner's English r-sound is the fricative ɹ described in § 22.8 he should pronounce this sound a number of times using strong sudden jerks of breath and trying to keep the tongue-tip as loose as possible. If he cannot manage by this means to make the tongue-tip vibrate, he should try the same exercise placing the tongue-tip against different points of the teeth-ridge. He may also try a similar exercise starting from ʒ or z instead of from ɹ. It is probable that after some trials he will hit upon the position which will cause the tongue-tip to vibrate a little.
22.20 When this stage has been reached, he becomes a learner of class (2) and must proceed as described above.
22.21 Some English people are able to acquire a rolled r by the following method. Pronounce slowly the exercise tədɑːtədɑːtədɑː... preferably with dental t's and alveolar d's; then gradually increase the speed. When said very fast indeed, the alveolar d has a tendency to turn into a 'flapped' or 'semi-rolled' r-sound, i.e. a sound formed after the manner of rolled r but consisting of only one single tap of the tongue (see § 22.4 above). With r representing here the flapped r, the resulting sequence sould be written tərɑːtərɑːtərɑː... or trɑːtrɑːtrɑː... (according to the rate of saying it). It then remains to isolate this r and extend it into the fully rolled sound. Many speakers of (British) English pronounce a flapped r between vowels before an unstressed syllable, as in very vɛrɪ. This r may be isolated and extended into a fully rolled sound.
[Skipping 22.22, which is about 'intrusive r'.]
22.23 Many English people find the task of learning to make rolled r much facilitated by aiming in the first instance at the corresponding voiceless sound r̥. r̥ is a fairly easy sound to acquire by the method described in § 22.19 (starting from a voiceless ɹ̥, or from ʃ, or from s). When r̥ has been acquired, it is not difficult to add voice, thus producing r.
[Now playing: "The Middle of the Road" by The Pretenders]
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» How to trill an r from CHAINIK
I fall into that lucky category of people that can sustain a trilled r until they run out of breath -- I've never had difficulty with the sound. The difficulty creeps in when I try to pronounce a soft trilled r ([rʲ]?), which the instructions do... [Read More]
Tracked on Apr 7, 2004 2:28:37 PM
Comments
I am linguist freak too, doing a masters in applied linguistics. I am lucky enough to be a native "triller" (from eastern Norway), and would love to give you a few private lessons :)
Actually it's mostly a flap, but the trill is very easily acceessible when you can do the flap!
When I tutored a Canadian in Norwegian he handled the trills in the middle of words, but not at the end. That was intersting! Any phonological explanation for that...?
Posted by: Vera Wilhelmsen at Apr 10, 2004 10:16:12 PM
Oh and an American friend of mine thought she couldn't pronounce the Norwegian flapped r in her name, which is Kari. But she spelled her name Cotty so that people would say her name right, not realizing that when they (and her)said that fast they were actually saying [kari] very much like Norwegian, with a flap :)cf. 22.21
Posted by: Vera Wilhelmsen at Apr 10, 2004 10:24:07 PM
"I am lucky enough to be a native "triller" (from eastern Norway), and would love to give you a few private lessons :)"
HEY! Back off, hussy. He's spoken for. If there are any lessons to be given about how he should move his tongue, they'll be from *me,* thankyouverymuch. ;)
Posted by: The Wife at Apr 12, 2004 7:59:18 PM
Ladies, please, there's no need to fight. There's more than enough Tensor to go around if you share...
[Say, this blog is working out better than I thought!]
Posted by: The Tensor at Apr 12, 2004 9:52:47 PM
You are *so* sleeping on the couch.
Posted by: The Wife at Apr 13, 2004 10:37:30 AM
Sorry, I meant no harm :)
Posted by: Vera at Apr 23, 2004 3:22:15 PM
I am trying to learn a trilled r to speak Spanish, and can remember being able to make the sound as a child, but can no longer do it. Your instructions are helpful, but I don't understand the linguistic symbols used to guide level 2 and 3 speakers. Can someone help me?
Posted by: susan franklin at May 4, 2004 9:55:06 AM
These are all International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA) symbols. If you look in the sidebar, there are some charts of the IPA, but they don't have a lot of explanation. The ones used here include:
'r', for trilled r
'r' with a ring under it, for voiceless trilled r
upside-down 'r', for the English r sound
script-z (kind of like a '3'), for the zh sound in "pleasure"
upside-down 'e' (schwa), for the unstressed vowel
script-'a', for the first vowel in "father"
two triangles (like a colon), for long vowel
small-caps 'I', for the ih sound in "hit"
upside-down 'r' with a ring below, voiceless English r
a long 's' (like an integral symbol), for sh
Let me know if I forgot any.
Posted by: The Tensor at May 5, 2004 12:57:14 AM
I'm not sure if I am doing it correctly. My old French teacher said that it didn't sound right, but would pass and that I should just continue with how I was doing it.
The sound I make is more of a "gargling" sound involving the back of my tongue and the roof of my throat. It tends to make my throat a little sore after a while. I've noticed that my mouth has to be fairly well-lubricated for it to sound right. Am I anywhere near what has to happen?
Raymond.
Posted by: level6 at May 17, 2004 12:12:05 AM
Ok - this article did not help at all in learning to roll the r's. Anyone have any REAL suggestions? I cannot make this sound and I have tried everything to learn it by reading explanations on the internet to watching people make the sound to visualizing myself doing it! HELP!?!?!
Posted by: shannon at May 25, 2004 6:36:43 PM
Yeah... I'd have to agree. This was just a lot of hot air.
-ba-dum-ching-
Raymond.
Posted by: level6 at May 27, 2004 12:12:10 AM
So Raymond...it looks like it's just the two of us that can't make the damn sound and no one to teach us. I'd like to hear from someone that learned it in adulthood.
Posted by: shannon at May 30, 2004 8:01:04 PM
Welp, I used my real email address, this time (click on the level6 below). If you have any luck, let me know. (: I can't really find anyone who explains it at the "dummy-level" I need on the net, yet.
I can whistle 3 different ways. I can make sounds with my hand in my armpit. I even learned the old blade of grass in the hands trick. But, I've never ever gotten this trilling thing down.
Raymond.
Posted by: level6 at Jun 4, 2004 11:08:56 AM
Drat. The URL goes there, if you supply it. OK, THIS one should have my email address. If not, it's level6@leper.org. Hehheh. (;
Raymond.
Posted by: level6 at Jun 4, 2004 11:10:11 AM
There are two types of trilled /r/. One is the uvular trill which involves vibration of the uvula. This is the pronunciation or 'r' used in most French and German dialects and also some versions of Puerto Rican Spanish. The other type is the tongue-tip trill which is normal for Russian, Spanish, Italian, Arabic and many other languages.
Some people cannot ever produce a tongue tip trill, either because their tongue tip is not flexible enough or because the tip of their tongue is too closely attached to the bottom of their mouth. The second case is sometimes called being "tongue-tied". If you cannot stick the tip of your tongue beyond your teeth you are definitely tongue-tied, and even if you can stick your tongue *tip* out of your mouth, say, only one millimeter, you may still be somewhat tongue-tied. The medical term for tongue-tie is "ankyloglossia". Supposedly it is a rare condition.
Personally I don't consider it rare because I was born with it. My tongue tip was literally attached to the bottom of my mouth and I couldn't stick the tip even between my teeth. My mother had the some condition, so it is a hereditary thing. On the other hand, one of my sisters can touch her nose with her tongue, so it strikes in a hit-or-miss fashion. So, if you happen to have ankyloglossia you will probably never be able to produce a tongue tip trill. These people either substitute a uvular trlll, or just suffer with a speech impediment.
In my case, as an adult, I had surgery on my tongue to correct the problem. The procedure is called a "frenectomy" or "frenulotomy". An oral surgeon or periodontist can perform it. It is not too bad, depending on how much they have to cut. The recovery was less than a week.
Historically there has been some disagreement as to whether ankyloglossia should or should not be surgically corrected. Midwives -- so they say -- used to keep a sharp fingernail handy to slice the bottom of a newborn's tongue if it was seen at birth in the old days. But, babies usually have fairly short, flat tongues which get longer and thinner as they get older. So at birth it is often unclear just how serious a case of ankyloglossia will be. Now almost all dentists agree that if there is going to be surgical correction it should wait until the child is one year old, and possibly much later.
In my case (and my mother's) nothing was done because as it turned out we both managed to speak English normally. But of course, most dialects of English do not have a tongue-tip trill, so the impediment is not obvious until you try to learn Spanish, Italian, Portuguese or whatever. If you can read Spanish you will find more discussion of ankyloglossia in Spanish medical journals because here the problem is quite clear and surgical correction is undertaken more often.
As an adult I decided I wanted to do something about the problem after a nice dentist mentioned that it could be fixed (and that my insurance would pay for it!) After the first frenulotomy I was able to stick my tongue tip between my teeth a little. However, I could still not trill an /r/, which was very disappointing. But it was better than before, since I could sort of fake a trill a little. Recently (seven years later) I had yet another frenulotomy. I'm still waiting to see what happens.
I practice trilling quite a lot. I think I am getting it. At least, I am now in category (2) of the learners above. But I'm not clear if I'm really doing it or am somehow faking it really well. I can sometimes produce a trill of three taps.
By the way, if you happen to have ankyloglossia you will also have a very hard time tonguing a wind-instrument quickly. This was a big problem for me too.
Now for more concrete advice. In my case one of the things I realized is that it can be important to be able to feel the tip of your tongue going into different positions (proprioceptive sensation). Because my tongue tip was immobile when I was a kid, I never became aware of what it felt like to move it and use it to touch various parts of my mouth. So the first thing I did was move my tongue tip every which way. Touch your teeth, each different tooth if you can. Touch your lower lip and your upper lip. Get acquainted with the tip of your tongue. Make it move in as many different ways as you can.
It's also important that the tip and front part of the tongue be flexible enough to vibrate. As I mentioned, if the tongue tip is rigid, it can't vibrate. Some people seem to have a really loose, flappy tongue tip, whereas for others the tongue tip is stiff. In my case my tongue tip is not very loose and my tongue seems to also be kind of wide. The longer and skinnier the front of your tongue is, probably the easier it will be to vibrate it. But, the tongue is a muscle -- or rather a bunch of muscles. And a muscle can be exercised and *stretched*. So my next step was to try to stick my tongue out of my mouth as far as I could. And also, to curl the tip of my tongue back as far as I could, stretching as hard as I could (until it hurts).
You also need to try to isolate the different ways the tongue can move. So the next step for me was to stick my tongue out between my teeth and try lifting the tip up and down, up and down, over and over, to get more flexibility and to allow my brain to get used to isolating the different muscles and using them individually.
Then I essentially started doing the exercises that they recommend in this Russian phonetics book. In trying to "fake it" I used to (and still maybe) say "daDaladaDala" or "taDalaDalaDala" where /D/ is the alveolar flap (i.e. the Spanish sound in "pero", a single Spanish r). I don't know if introducing /l/ into the exercise was a good idea or not. The /l/ is pronounced by lowering one or both sides of the tongue body and leaving the tongue tip more or less in the same place. But somehow incorporating /l/ seemed to help get the tongue going.
I think they are entirely right when they say that each individual has to find out where the tongue tip needs to be placed to vibrate. In my case -- assuming I am really doing it right -- the position was further back in my mouth than I expected. I'm convinced that not everyone produces the trill is exactly the same way. I have Spanish friends who seem to be able to open their mouths wide and you can actually see the tongue tip wagging. Then I know people who seem to do it with the teeth very close together. One friend told me that if she has to sustain the trill it starts to feel like the side of her tongue is vibrating -- this is why I wonder if the /l/ part of the exercise is important.
Also the idea of "sliding" the tongue tip back after an attack from a /t/ or /d/ seemed to help me. One person suggested alternating uvular trill /R/ and alveolar trill /r/. This might be helpful. In my case because I can do the uvular trill so well, sometimes I can't tell if it's the tongue tip that's vibrating or the uvula, or maybe both (the tip starts but peters out and the uvula starts to "help" it along).
I'm still working on this problem. My sincerest best wishes to all of you out there who are struggling too and I hope this can be helpful.
Posted by: Rolf at Jul 4, 2004 1:22:01 PM
A couple of other things I thought of. First, it might help to try to position the jaw in different ways. The distance between the teeth is going to affect the aerodynamics of the oral cavity. So if you open wide or not so wide or hardly at all, you may get different facility. Also the position of the lips may matter, although ultimately if you are going to use the trill in a real word the lips will have their own jobs to do so can't be called upon too much to help. But, I seemed to be able to get the tongue going a little easier at first by stretching the lips out more in a smile position -- the position that they tell you to use when pronouncing the 'y' vowel of Russian (as in /ty/ 'you'). Then I found that eventually my lips could assume different positions.
Also, what Raymond is describing is a uvular trill. This -- or the fricative version of it which involves making the back of the tongue approach the uvula but not setting the uvula into vibration -- is the correct 'r' in standard French. However, I've also noticed that the uvular trill doesn't always come out right -- for example, if I lean my head way back, or lie face up sideways on my bed and let my head hang back over the side -- then gravity acts differently on the uvula and it will not go into vibration. Instead I just get a rather unpleasant friction. So, to make absolutely sure that I am not using the uvula instead of the tongue tip trill, I practiced doing the tongue tip trill lying in this position.
Posted by: Rolf at Jul 4, 2004 2:11:09 PM
Hello
I was never able to get the French r down, but as for the Spanish one, I remember teaching myself to make that sound on the playground in elementary school:
Cool kid: Hey, can you make a sound like a telephone?
Me: Huh?
Cool kid: You know. Brrrrrrrrrrrrring!
Me: Bllrlr.... How did you do that?
Cool kid: It's easy- you can do it. Just bounce your tounge off the top of your mouth.
Well, after a couple of days of practice, I could do it, and I've been able to ever since. Nothing like a little peer pressure. It came in handy in High School Spanish, though. Incidentally, for those who were having trouble with the flip, I seem to recall my Spanish teacher recommended saying the name Betty over and over again-- "Betty, Betty, Betty Betty..."
Posted by: MelanieP at Sep 1, 2004 7:35:50 AM
Hi,
I am from India but my first language is Canadian English (half of my family is Canadian) and I always use the retroflex or curled "r" as in American English. Few years back I learnt Swedish and have always had a very hard time pronouncing the most common "r" in swedish, a trilled "r". Thankfully there is the Scania (Skåne) region in sweden where they use the uvular "r" ...I tried talking like them with uvular "r" and voila! I have no porblems with it! I love my new accent:)) Nobody can tell I'm not swedish. TRILLING isnn't something for me!:)
Posted by: Vic at Jan 8, 2005 1:21:03 PM
i need help...
as everyone says, i put my tongue on the top of my mouth, and blow. Nothing happens until... i don't quite know, but i move something in my tongue a little, and i get somewhat of a trill. My dad can do it well, but mine is 1/3 the speed of his... I can't tell if what im doing is an unconcious movement of my tongue, or if im doing it right and i just need to practice more. I can feel it hit the top of my mouth. If i stop blowing, i can keep making the sound sometimes, but then i have to kinda try to move my tongue. I've looked in the mirror, and i see my tongue moving up and down.
i need help because i need to learn it for spanish. any help is appreciated.
Posted by: matt at Aug 27, 2005 7:26:39 PM
I love learning different languages but everytime i hear the R in, let's say, italian. i wanna give it up cos i just can't do it. knowing already that i wouldnt be able to master the language one day or sound anywhere near a native speaker, i get so depressed. I'm chinese and we dun have R in our language. thought it must be the problem but as soon as i hear my chinese friend make that noise, i've started practising again... i placed my tongue tip on the top of my mouth and blew too.. didnt work except drying my mouth and annoying my bf, haha..
Posted by: annie at Aug 28, 2005 7:03:50 AM
"There are two types of trilled /r/. One is the uvular trill which involves vibration of the uvula. This is the pronunciation or 'r' used in most French and German dialects and also some versions of Puerto Rican Spanish."
Minor point, but I'm 100% sure the (standard) French R is a uvular fricative - not a uvular trill. There's no vibration at all.
Posted by: Christophe at Mar 25, 2006 9:51:14 PM
PRODUCING AN ALVEOLAR TRILL
I posted a comment yesterday but soon I realised that there was a mistake. I wrote 'flap' instead of 'tap' in the comment. Actually I wanted to say 'tap' wherever I've mentioned a 'flap'. So, here is a revised one.
My native language is 'Nepali' which is a descendent of 'Sanskrit' Language. Although most researchers have described 'r' of Sanskrit as retroflex, most Nepalese people use a tapped alveolar 'r' except when the 'r' sound is preceded by a retroflex plosive. If you can make a tap, it's relatively easier for you to make an alveolar trill and I can do it easily.
MY TIPS FOR PRODUCING AN ALVEOLAR TRILL
First try to produce dental plosives 't' and 'd' (Remember that 't' and 'd' in English are alveolar plosives). Then with the dental plosives try to make syllables like 'tra', 'dra', 'tri', 'dri', 'tru', 'dru' etc. Try to hit the alveolar ridge immediately after articulating the 't' or 'd' sound. (Remember that if you use the alveolar 't' or 'd' sounds in these syllables, you can't articulate the following 'r' as a tap.) When you can articulate a tap in these syllables, try to articulate a tapped 'r' in syllables like 'ra', 'ri' etc. When you are comfortable with that, you can go and try for a 'trill'. For the trill, first try it in isolation, and then use them in syllables.
I hope this will be of use for most who are trying to produce an alveolar trilled 'r'.
Apurba
Posted by: Apurba Dahal at Apr 16, 2006 7:59:36 PM
i'm doing an english trainer course and
i need to know which is the difference between vibration and friction of the vocal folds
could you please send me an e-mail to sabrinita_09@hotmail.com telling me about it ?
please help!
Posted by: abrina at Apr 30, 2006 6:23:14 PM
i have tried all the above methods but i just cant vibrate the damn thing. Are there any other ways of rolling an r because i just can't do it without spraying everyone with spit and sounding like a complete bozo. When rolling the r do you actually have your mouth in position of about to say a normal r? PLEASE please i need help and would be very grateful for ANYTHING. email at pearltorto@hotmail.com. thank you
Posted by: sophie at Jun 5, 2006 10:24:05 AM
I am so so glad i am not the only person completely and utterly frustrated by this whole spanish 'r' thing. i can't trill an 'r' or vibrate my tongue at all!! am it's driving me mad! i am trying to learn spanish and it's impossible - everytime i hear a word with an 'r' (basically every verb!) i just want to cry! i'll keep practising with all the kind advice - but even if i can't manage it at least i'm not the only one! xxx
Posted by: Rachael at Jun 20, 2006 10:09:15 AM
Well, I'm not alone, that's good. But I've lived in Puerto Rico for the past eleven years (and still do) and I don't just have to be able to speak correctly for one class, I have to for all of them. This is really affecting my oral reports, because, well, no one understands me. Not to mention that socially I'm a mess since everyone comments on how "funny" I sound. I blame it on my tongue-tie. But I asked my dentist about it, he said that the operation wouldn't help - I'm confused. I don't even talk to people who don't know English anymore, very frustrating (which is why I want to move to the US and never speak Spanish again! lol)
Posted by: Angela at Jun 26, 2006 2:52:41 AM
Help! I've looked everywhere for this information. Is the ability to "roll" or "trill" the letter /r/ genetic? (Just as "tongue rollig" is a genetic trait) Also, is this same thing as the trilled /r/ in singing? Is this also referred to as the "alveolar trill"? I'm a vocal major at the grad level and can't trill an /r/ to save my soul, nor can anyone on either side of my family, except my daughter. It's very frustrating, though I have tried to learn. I'm attempting to do research on this subject and am in the process of writing a research paper on this skill. If anyone can enlighten me, please do. I could use any reference information or scholarly articles anyone might be able to share - ASAP. My proposal is due this coming week. Thanks!
Posted by: Debra at Jun 30, 2006 6:58:34 PM
Well, with the caveat that I Am Not An Expert in speech pathology or vocal training, I'll see if I can help a bit.
One place to start would be to find an introductory textbook on speech pathology and start following references—that's not my area, though, so I don't have a recommendation for a good one. Google Scholar might also be a good place to start searching for articles—try searching for strings like "alveolar trill", "dental trill", "disordered speech", "genetic", etc. Some preliminary searching turned up a 1975 article in the Journal of Heredity (not available online, but the abstract is here) titled "No evidence for a genetic basis of tongue rolling or hand clapping". That title implies that tongue rolling isn't a genetic trait after all, and the Wikipedia article about the tongue claims the same thing (see references 4 and 5).
I'd never heard of the "trill" in singing, so I did a little more googling. It's not an authoritative answer, but this web page describes the musical trill as "an educated yodel at the vocal cords". If that's correct, then it's a very different phenomenon from the trill consonants, which involve a piece of soft tissue (the tongue, the lips, or the uvula) flapping in the speech airstream.
Posted by: The Tensor at Jun 30, 2006 8:43:52 PM
I am not sure if I am doing the [r] right. I can vibrate my tongue against my alveolar ridge and I can sustain that all day if I wanted to. However, it is voiceless and requires what seems to be massive amounts of air flow. If I add voice it is harder to keep the vibration going but I can manage it. The thing is, is that my tongue is pretty flat while this is going on and others seem to curve their tongue upwards with only their tiny tippy tip vibrating. As a result my trill is very CLICKY. It feels like its not just the tip of my tongue vibrating but more of the whole end half is. I think I am doing everything right but others who hear it say it isn't so. Others seem to do it with very little air flow but I just don't understand how this is possible unless the shape and size of the mouth and tongue plays a drastic role. I wish I could find somewhere a 3D animation of how exactly everything is positioned in order for this to work.
Posted by: Dan at Jul 5, 2006 6:19:16 AM
It is so comforting to know that I'm not the only one who cannot make this sound. I, too am a linguistics fanatic. I understand the terminology, but like others here, I have trouble putting the words to practice. I have even considered the idea of an invention that you place in the mouth that vibrates!! Would that even work?
It seems like everyone can make this sound but me. I love Italian, and am desparately trying to learn it, but it's heartbreaking when I try to speak it and can't do the trill!
I am also a firm believer that language is not inborn, but learned. Even if you don't come from a trilling country, I believe anyone can learn it, but it's just a matter of how!
I will try some of the methods I read about here, but I do believe it takes time and practice. One final question: how much muscle power is necessary when trilling? I keep reading the tongue must be relaxed, but is there any conscious movement, or is it all airflow? Thanks!
Posted by: Juliette at Jul 14, 2006 8:42:10 AM
I'm not a good triller. I don't even know if i am even close, but I can get the vibration to happen with massive amounts of airflow. I don't use any conscious tongue movement at all. I'm working on reducing the amount of airflow so that it is not so clicky and I can do it with a singing voice. Other people I talk to, who can seemlingly do it well, need just a wee bit of greater air flow to get it going then they reduce it, keeping it going with just the airflow of their voice.
Posted by: Dan at Jul 25, 2006 10:01:48 AM
been trying to learn this too.. i almost married a girl from pr, and my ex wife could trill Rs like crazy (she also spoke nowegian) but i never could get the hang of it and its drove me nuts most my life.. so.. been trying to learn how on my own..
now dont laugh.
a word i made up that seems to help me.. a little.. to repeat.. is
"blree-ko"
hehe
Posted by: jason at Jul 28, 2006 3:31:49 AM
oh.. and 'colorache' said quickly/fast.
its similar to 'blree-ko. aka 'ima gonna blrree-ko yo neck' hehehe
yes.. i know im nuts lol.
also earlier.. that word 'cotty' said quickly for Cary.. that was a pretty one i think too to get the hang of.
Posted by: jason at Jul 28, 2006 4:05:07 AM
Try to say this:
"Quiero comprar un perro, pero el perro es demasiado caro para mi."
I think the English is easier: "I want to buy a dog, but the dog is too expensive for me."
Yes, this is very frustrating. I am an Aussie and have been living in South America since 1992 and still can't roll my Rs. I adjust my words to use synonms without Rs, eg I use "extraño" instead of "raro" etc. But I am still searching for the technique. I suspect that my tongue just never developed the correct muscle to enable the trillling to occur. So I am now looking for tongue exercises that will develop the muscles in the tip of the tongue.
Any ideas?
(And no, I have't bought a dog!)
Posted by: Jim at Jul 31, 2006 6:20:02 PM
To the Canadian, you know, in Stockholm, you can have a voiced alveolar approximant, too.. the same as in Received Pronunciation. The alveolar trill sucks! It's too complicated, the most problematic sound, seriously. Although pronouncing "perkele" is the most manly thing any man can do, it blows, and is for uneducated barbarians!!
It's funny that my parents made jokes about me being a Jew (whose languages haven't had a trill for over 2000 years, ignore Sephardic) since being 14, I still can't pronounce it. And what do you know? Later research by me shows everyone in my family is Jewish except for my dad! Hah.
Posted by: mrpoo at Dec 22, 2006 3:04:40 PM
I am learning Russian, and I have tried to make the rolled r', but I don't seem to be able to do it. I can do the Spanish tapped r' as in "quiero" and "eres", and I can do it very well (I think), but I just can't get a good grasp of the trilled r'. I am not sure what exactly what people mean by rolling your tongue. Do you mean to curl your tongue up at the sides, so that when seen from the front, it looks like a U (I can do this), or to flip the front part of your tongue upside down so that it is over the part of your tongue that is further back (I cannot do this). When I put tongue in the first position (where it looks like a U from the front) and put it in the right position, then blow air out and vocalise, what I seem to get is a slow "lduh-lduh-lduh" sound. Could someone please post some USEFUL information, that is step-by-step and uses simple but descriptive language? Please and thank you.
Posted by: Brett at Dec 29, 2006 8:10:17 PM
"Posted by: Dan at Jul 25, 2006 10:01:48 AM
a word i made up that seems to help me.. a little.. to repeat.. is
"blree-ko"
hehe"
Dan, I have been trying in vain for about three hours straight now to produce an alveolar trill. Your word has gotten me so much closer now. Thank you for blree-ko. X-D
P.S. I am a speech pathology major. After many hours of practice, I was able to teach myself a uvular trill. But so far my tongue tip isn't flexible enough to do the alveolar trill. But I'm working on it!
I'd love to hear from any adult who was able to learn the alveolar trill.............if only to show me there's hope!???
Posted by: Kelly at Aug 11, 2008 11:49:09 PM
I have a son that is tongue tied that our dentist told us about when my son was 5 or 6. He said it could be cut, but it did not seem to cause any problems with speech until now. My son is now 15 and in a 3rd year spanish class, his teacher is requiring them to be able to trill an 'R'. He will receive an 'F' for that grade unless he can learn. My son shared with him that he is tongue tied and the teachers response was "anyone can learn how to trill an 'R'". We have been working on it with no sucess, I can't trill an r or make a taco tongue and I am not even tongue tied. My daughter and husband can do both. Can my son not learn because he is tongue tied or is it because it is in his genes? Please help us as my son does not want an 'F'.
Posted by: Tracy Kinder at Oct 21, 2008 3:50:21 PM
Sorry, Tracy, I'm just a linguist with a blog, not an expert in oral anatomy. I'd suggest starting with the Wikipedia article on ankyloglossia and following the references at the bottom for more information. Good luck dealing with your son's Spanish teacher. If he/she continues to be unsympathetic, you might try taking it up with the principal -- giving out bad grades for speech impediments sounds like the kind of policy that gets schools sued.
Posted by: The Tensor at Oct 21, 2008 5:06:02 PM
I've been able to do an alveolar trill without practice or effort (lucky me). I'm Australian, so I wasn't born into it, but after hearing it in a song I tried it. A few minutes later I annoyed the hell out of siblings by letting loose a loud trill.
I don't really know how I do it, but I've found that if you try to force it it comes out really hoarse and jarbled. If you fail at first, just remember to keep it relaxed. Stop for a while if you become too frustrated. None of my family can get it right though.... Ah well, I'm pretty special (rolls eyes at self)
Posted by: Chloe Jaide at Apr 23, 2009 3:39:43 AM
